Curse

Patrick Smit · May 03, 2007, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

....I've been looking desperately for an alternate game to play, but WoW is garbage, Everq is just... no... and the assortment of other MMos that were the reason I enjoyed and relished in GW in the first place are all useless to me. So I just haven't been playing MMos at all, which is sad because I enjoy(ed) them.

I suppose I'm not the only person that feels "tossed about" by Anet, like we have no control over what we want, am I?

This already shows that a monthly fee is no guarantee for a good game. I think the path followed is different then WoW's or others, but essentially it will do the same. They generate income and use it for maintenance development. How income is generated is less important to my opinion. Now I somewhat share a bit your thoughts on the different decisions that have been made. They took some time, and the the final approach was not always well though off, better solutions were available for a number of problems. But that's it, and they have to deal with that.

In general I think what determines the succes of a game or any project is that it needs motivation. A well motivated team that takes decisions that make the game well functioning will have a high motivation, and will be able to make it last longer. That doesnt always mean the customer is right, like we can't give all students an A+ because they like good grades. But a good playerbase can appreciate not so nice but essential nerfs too if well executed, and argumented.

Etta · May 03, 2007, 09:56 AM // 09:56

So, you already stop playing, right? But you still want to change the game to suit you, right? Why?.....Maybe you want to come back to GW again? You did try out some other games but didn't like any of them. C'mon, don't be like this, no need to go all gungho and bashing other people.

Miral · May 03, 2007, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

A lot of people play Guild Wars for the lack of a monthly fee. It's nice, I will definitely admit. But I find that in Guild Wars we have a series of problems that are constant. Things the community asks for or complains about go unheeded, and I would say (only considering the players I know personally) customer satisfaction is fairly low, especially (almost only) after the release of Factions.
I'm not trying to be the "Screw Anet *$)!%&#@()*!" guy, but I see and feel this in my Guild Wars experience:

1) Old issues go mostly unresolved for long periods of time, or permanently.
~ Took 2 years to increase storage space, and a few months to revert HA to 8vs8.
2) Things we didn't want/need are added frequently instead of fixes or additions we request personally.
~Soul Reaping "fix". (And with continuity to my first statement, it's seemingly gone unresolved about a month now.)

I think that this is a direct affect of the lack of subscription fee. Once they have our money, we are account holders and offer little in the way of money for them after that until the next game is released. But the more things they add, the bigger the game seems and the more random stuff that is included, the more people can read about when thinking of purchasing the game.

I don't think this kind of "abuse" would happen in a game with a subscription fee. If, let's say, Guild Wars had a fee from the beginning; If the game developers nerfed Soul Reaping and the same response from the players came about that did with the actual GW, I don't think there would have been a moments' haste in meeting the demands of the paying customers, and either reverting it, or just doing what over 75% of each individual community asked and "make SR cancel out spirit gain". But no, Anet knows better than us don't they. They know better what we actually want.

When I started playing this game, I didn't give a crap about the developers. I made a purchase on a great game, and LOVED the hell out of it for a long time. But I've found the development team ominously and cruelly destroying what I loved about the game slowly over the course of the last year or so.

I've been looking desperately for an alternate game to play, but WoW is garbage, Everq is just... no... and the assortment of other MMos that were the reason I enjoyed and relished in GW in the first place are all useless to me. So I just haven't been playing MMos at all, which is sad because I enjoy(ed) them.

I suppose I'm not the only person that feels "tossed about" by Anet, like we have no control over what we want, am I?

You've never really played a subscription-based MMO, have you? In general, they have worse quality control of updates than guildwars.

A little recap of some of my experiences with pay-to-play MMO services, based on the problems you think guild wars has due to being free to play:
1. old issues go unresolved... not only do balance and in-game bugs and missing features go unresolved, but so do major technical problems that keep you from playing at all.
2. Things we don't want are added instead of what we ask for... Yep, lots of that too. Like when EQ2 decided it would be fun to put huge re-entry timers on all of the zones worth entering... yep that was sure fun!

Every game will add some things you don't want and not add things you do want. That's just the way it is, the old saying you can't please everybody. Theres some people out there with an opinion completely opposite of yours, and their opinion is no less valid - perhaps more-so if they know to realize the world does not revolve around them.

as for the problems you list about gw specifically:
1. soul reaping. yes, it was a crappy change. yes, I was/am pissed about it. not because my necro was nerfed, but because they decided to screw up pve in favor of pvp. this point i will give you, whether its for same reason or not, though they are looking into a different solution for the next balance update.
2. HA 6v6 or 8v8. Okay, you might consider 6v6 HA a huge travesty, a horrible mistake, a slap in the face, etc... But others might feel the same way about 8v8 HA. Its not exactly easy to get a capable, full 8man group together in off-peak hours for HA or anything else for that matter. And the fresh look instead of the same prevalent builds can be refreshing. Why should anet listen to you instead of the other side? Because you bitch louder? please.
3. Storage. Yeah, would have been nice to have extra storage early on, but the game was completely playable without it. And some people are quite fond of storage emptying sales

. You say it would have been nice to have it when it was needed.... You mean its not needed now? funny, I thought we had a lot more items to store now than we did 2 years ago... 2 new campaigns worth of stuff plus a bunch of holiday stuff... I'd say when they implemented it was when it was needed most.

As I said, you're not going to agree with every choice a development team makes, whether you are paying a monthly fee or not. However, one more good thing about a lack of fee is that if you do decide you have had enough, you've played for 2 years for just the cost of the game. And then if they implement something you like down the road, you can start playing again without any costs. Just like any single-player game, except with tons more free content.

Will charging a monthly fee improve the game? Possible, but not likely.
Will charging a monthly fee alienate a lot of players? Definitely.

Miral · May 03, 2007, 10:00 AM // 10:00

<edit: technical problem>

Bread Fan · May 03, 2007, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by savage vapor 33

Well duh we have no control over what we want. Anet can do pretty much what it damn pleases.

But...

They do give us what we want. We asked and received hard mode, we ask for skill changes, we receive them, we ask for better tourney and ladder changes, we receive it. Just because they can't work at insane speeds that might suit you, they are still working hard.

Thing is to remove kill count takes little to no effort. It is simply a roll back. Little to no effort and the only thing lost is an ego from an Anet employee who suggested it would work. Most companies aren't biased.

Henchman · May 03, 2007, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

I'm not trying to "imply" anything, but how recently did you start playing the game?

Make it better for people just joining the game, not for established players who were already loving 8vs8.

I have been with Prophecies about 5 months after its release, and the change to HA was an attempt to make it better. I am not "implying" anything but I think that you that you consider yourself an elitist, who is better and more experienced than most other players, and that Anet needs to mend the game into a shape which is suitable only for yourself without regards to those who are newer, or those who do not grind the game.
The example of you considering me new, and the fact to you claim that the change in HA was for newer players just proves my point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

Yeah, they realized they failed. Not exactly relevant, but it means more to my opinion that they add unneeded things frequently, and without demand.

Some additional unneeded changes also include:
- refund points
- the ability to change proffesions without going to the profession changer
- buffs to many skills, especially eles which were underpowered and useless once.
My point, Anet always make changes to make the game better. Most changes work for the better, some don't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

Balance is one thing, but like I said, it's a matter of how long it has been, and how much other stuff has happened since then. They've already surrendered to the fact that the SR nerf was a "mistake" at best.

They only admitted that it was a bit too much. But it is still better than it was before. Even still, they intend (or claim) to change it some more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

You have to be pretty conceited to assume and bash others for being conceited.

You make no sence at all

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

Send them to my IM box plz.

Miral · May 03, 2007, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bread Fan

Thing is to remove kill count takes little to no effort. It is simply a roll back. Little to no effort and the only thing lost is an ego from an Anet employee who suggested it would work. Most companies aren't biased.

again, some people like kill count. if a few people start a protest saying anet should remove some other victory condition and do more killcount, does that mean they should?

Traveller · May 03, 2007, 10:12 AM // 10:12

The fact that Guild Wars has no monthly fee is the greatest thing to semi-casual players or just those who want to ake a break now and then. I've had several breaks from GW every time it starts to feel like too much of a grind and usually return with renewed interest with a new update or such.

I predict I'll be playing very actively come GW:EN, and I can just do this with no monthly fees.

Inari · May 03, 2007, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Wow, so many tools here.

Don't you ppl have questions? Don't any of you want answers to stuff?

Im not so happy (or angry) with gw right now, the reason I still play if cuase of my friends. And yes, its my descision. I am also wating on gwen.
But there is ton of stuff in this game that is just sitting there with noone ever using it. This does raise questions no?

People whine cuz people care, and you tools would do better to remember it, and stop bashing those who care. THEY make the game better on the long run.

Miral · May 03, 2007, 10:16 AM // 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inari

Wow, so many tools here.

Don't you ppl have questions? Don't any of you want answers to stuff?

Im not so happy (or angry) with gw right now, the reason I still play if cuase of my friends. And yes, its my descision. I am also wating on gwen.
But there is ton of stuff in this game that is just sitting there with noone ever using it. This does raise questions no?

People whine cuz people care, and you tools would do better to remember it, and stop bashing those who care. THEY make the game better on the long run.

better for them, sure. but worse for people with differing views.

Mesmerman · May 03, 2007, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saphatorael

Stop twisting my words, Imo he isn't whining. And even so, you started the entire whining thing in the first place, no?

Didn't I already establish that?

Quote:

You are.

If you're referring to me speaking about a "lack of intelligence", then you're still wrong.

Quote:

I enjoy laughing with people. You should join in on the gwguru irc channel!
A few outtakes:
[10:50] <ZenRgy-BibleOnDvd> Yeah ban Mesmerman too.
[10:50] <ZenRgy-BibleOnDvd> I hate that guy.

[10:51] <fallot> "Guild: [Penis]"
[10:51] <fallot> hey he's funny
[10:51] <fallot> look, he's a funny man
[10:51] <ZenRgy-BibleOnDvd> GIVE HIM A STICKER

[10:56] <[Law]Fenix> Mesmerman is SO DUMB

[10:58] <fallot> "I don't think this kind of "abuse" would happen in a game with a subscription fee."
[10:58] * fallot touches Mesmerman
[10:58] <Khelevaster> that's where he goes off track

[11:03] <ZenRgy-BibleOnDvd> I'd troll his fadce off but I just got unbanned.
[11:03] <ZenRgy-BibleOnDvd> <_<
[11:04] <Khelevaster> um dont say stupid crap?
[11:04] <Khelevaster> OMG HAI ITS TEH INTARWEB MUST BE RETARDED IN RETURN
And much more.

kekekekkekekeke That's the best you can do? Hit me with a chatlog from a bunch of kids giggling because an actual thought never crosses their mind?
I enjoy laughing as much as you do, except AT you, for using social reinforcement to try and argue me.

P.S.: I'll be on there shortly.

Quote:

Needed? In your opinion, of course. Keep in mind there's over 3 million other players. Go work for Anet if you want to change what is 'needed'.
And to go back to your first ideas: Storage wasn't needed, yet it was given. Soul Reaping had to be changed, the only people who didn't agree on that were PvE'ers, and they're working on a fix for that right now, period.

I don't need to work for Anet, if Anet were to work for me. Consumerism is based on my interests and therefore my interests become the paycheck of those I buy from.

3million ACCOUNTs. gg.

Quote:

*gives you a sticker*
Your comparison is utter bullshit and fails at even showing a relation as how the lack of a fee affects the actual game.

**Takes sticker and puts it on chalkboard of stickers**
I thought I'd made it fairly clear, but here, I'll help you:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

A lot of people play Guild Wars for the lack of a monthly fee. It's nice, I will definitely admit. But I find that in Guild Wars we have a series of problems that are constant. Things the community asks for or complains about go unheeded, and I would say (only considering the players I know personally) customer satisfaction is fairly low, especially (almost only) after the release of Factions.
I'm not trying to be the "Screw Anet *$)!%&#@()*!" guy, but I see and feel this in my Guild Wars experience:

1) Old issues go mostly unresolved for long periods of time, or permanently.
~ Took 2 years to increase storage space, and a few months to revert HA to 8vs8.
2) Things we didn't want/need are added frequently instead of fixes or additions we request personally.
~Soul Reaping "fix". (And with continuity to my first statement, it's seemingly gone unresolved about a month now.)

I think that this is a direct affect of the lack of subscription fee. Once they have our money, we are account holders and offer little in the way of money for them after that until the next game is released. But the more things they add, the bigger the game seems and the more random stuff that is included, the more people can read about when thinking of purchasing the game.

I don't think this kind of "abuse" would happen in a game with a subscription fee. If, let's say, Guild Wars had a fee from the beginning; If the game developers nerfed Soul Reaping and the same response from the players came about that did with the actual GW, I don't think there would have been a moments' haste in meeting the demands of the paying customers, and either reverting it, or just doing what over 75% of each individual community asked and "make SR cancel out spirit gain". But no, Anet knows better than us don't they. They know better what we actually want.

When I started playing this game, I didn't give a crap about the developers. I made a purchase on a great game, and LOVED the hell out of it for a long time. But I've found the development team ominously and cruelly destroying what I loved about the game slowly over the course of the last year or so.

I've been looking desperately for an alternate game to play, but WoW is garbage, Everq is just... no... and the assortment of other MMos that were the reason I enjoyed and relished in GW in the first place are all useless to me. So I just haven't been playing MMos at all, which is sad because I enjoy(ed) them.

I suppose I'm not the only person that feels "tossed about" by Anet, like we have no control over what we want, am I?

Quote:

NERF BIRTHDAYS. Be glad you got it, period.

No.

Quote:

For all we know, we wouldn't have it right now, and nobody would be whining, people would just tell you to buy another character slot. Anet actually loses money because of the storage expansion.

People like you make their late investments worthwhile. They give you something worthless, you lap it up like dog-water. And that's why they'll continue to own you and your IRC buddies.

Quote:

'Needed'? There we go again... I had plenty of storage space, and I actually have stuff like Naga Fangs, 4 Tapestry Shreds, all the seasonal items etc. nicely on my pvp-focussed chars, who function as mules (such as my Dervish and Assassin).

Screenshots please.

Quote:

Please, no 'if, then' statements. The game is at it is, people like it like that and don't feel the need to complain. Anet wouldn't care about 1 person continuously whining about the game not being perfect. Because guess what, no game is perfect. Make your own if you want everything to be your way, wink wink.

I feel the same way about the government!

"if you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything."

Quote:

As I said, stop twisting my words. If you can't handle the things they are, then just quit and stop bothering to change it.
I DO have an opinion, and I'm glad with the game as it is. I paid for the games (3 CE's so far, likely a GW:EN CE if there's one coming), and almost 3.4k hours of play, for only 180 euro's.

I'm really getting ashamed of yourself for you. Accept things as they are or quit?

Quote:

As a side note, you remind me of my teacher of International Law. Everybody laughs at him because he makes such radical statements, and the worst part about that is, in our exams, if we critique something, it must be similar to his opinion, or he'll let you fail, which is basically the only reason people haven't directly confronted him yet. You should try not to make an arse out of yourself through radical statements, you're not in any position to make Anet or me 'fail a test' or make us do something.

Hehehe... I came to teach you. And believe me, there's no test. I'd have known the outcome from the beginning.

Quote:

If you want something done... well, I suppose I've told you plenty of times what you could do.

You responded to my thread.

Bread Fan · May 03, 2007, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

again, some people like kill count. if a few people start a protest saying anet should remove some other victory condition and do more killcount, does that mean they should?

When the overwhelming majority is completely opposed to it then yes. Post when you have some insight as to the situation.

fallot · May 03, 2007, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

Everquest doesn't count.

So the rest of the ones I listed do ? So the people who have said that they think you've never played a subscription game in your life may have some valid concerns ? Address them please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

They didn't "keep working" on the issue... they gave up when they realized they goofed. They tried to repair it to what it was, which will now never happen.

There were HA polls on the two major English Guild Wars forums. There have been a number of HA weekends with changes to maps and mechanics, not minor overhauls either. There have been numerous HA specific skill balance changes. Even the original change to 6v6 was an attempt made in good faith to improve the condition of HA. So what if it went badly ? They certainly did not give up. The reversion to 8v8 was under (informed) community pressure, a point against your OP, which claims that ANet frequently is dismissive of community opinions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

How many times does it need to be said that understanding their reasoning is different than agreeing with it?

Disagree with their reasoning as much as you will. It is meaningless. Simple maths can tell you that Soul Reaping energy returns are overpowered in pretty much any environment. The long term health of the game is far more important than the anger and dissatisfaction of some players, if the reasoning is not acceptable and the impact on gameplay is too much for you to stomach then I'd have to advise a different game.

Inari · May 03, 2007, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

better for them, sure. but worse for people with differing views.

Some people can't see the bigger picture...

Corinthian · May 03, 2007, 10:36 AM // 10:36

I never had anything to complain about bugs or unfixed issues. And how was storage an "issue"??? If you can't find space for your eleven sets you never use on your mesmer, well, that's pretty much only your problem and not an issue with the game. Sheesh. I could go all day collecting white items and complaining about not being able to store them all. There's no difference.

Anet didn't create this game on our terms. THEY MAKE THE RULES AND WE ADAPT. If there's an imbalance in the game, abuse the hell out of it while you still can and quit posting on forums how it should be fixed. That's my best advice.

Porkchop Sandwhiches · May 03, 2007, 10:52 AM // 10:52

I only skimmed over some replies, so apologies if I am repeating someone.

To the OP: I am assuming you have not played very many other MMOs. Let me explain something to you... I have played A LOT of MMOs, and am DEARLY impressed with ANent and their team for Guild Wars. You think they don't listen to us? They do.

Small example: Just the other day I was commenting to my husband about how amazing it was that there was a bug with the birthday event (the ticket rollbacks) that got fixed so quickly. It was a Saturday, they called people in. Heck, they don't even have their own forums, they have to patroll fan forums. It's amazing how much they actually DO care about their game.

I do realize you are also saying they don't listen to us about how we want the game to be. Okay, just look at fan site forums. I rarely see a company going to fan sites and posting polls and actively participating in forums discussion.

Second example: The farm nerf they did recently was bad, and many people complained. So within a day they actually admitted they went overboard and undid some of the changes. That is... amazing. Incredible. You know what would happen if a nerf like that went into most other MMOs out there? It would stay there. The company would believe the small, vocal, players complaining on the forums were over reacting, or would not even give a crap that it upset players.

You haven't seen a nerf until you see something like what happened to say, Star Wars Galaxies and their NGE update.

You have to realize two very important things about a game and especially this one right now.

First, this year is going to be tough for the people who work as devs and designers of GW. A lot of their resources (and by that I mean people who work there) are probably getting dragged over to work on GW2. A lot of their energy right now is going into making a whole new game. I, for one, am so glad I don't work for major gaming companies because of the pressure they are put under to produce a decent game in a set amount of time.

Secondly, there is a limit to what can be changed about a game before you are actually hurting it. Some things in GW may not change because it would actually be a BAD THING. The line of something being bad is drawn by the people who watch this game, who have built it, and have a direction they want it to go in.

Overall, you should realize that this is just a game and that these people aren't super human. And YES, there is no fee and they still manage to do the things they are doing, be amazed!

If something was nerfed that was dear to your little heart, look at the larger picture.

MAnderson · May 03, 2007, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

Their choices when considering suggestions would be more "influenced" were it to mean an immediate loss of revenue.

Lets take a look a basic human nature here.
People want what is beneficial to them not necessarily to what is best for others and we don't always think in the long term. Simple, right? So try to understand. ( I don't normally judge people by what side of the argument they are on but I will extend you the same courtesy that you have to others posting here).

I herd form people who play WoW that there are huge class imbalances; the devs can't fix that because there choices are too influenced by that fact it would cause 'immediate loss of revenue.' Do you really think the player of the game is unbiased enough to make decisions on the meta game? Don't you think they may say 'nay' if it would means there gaming experience is more of a challenge, if it would force them to find work-arounds?

Furthermore the no mouthy fees is a selling point; thus removing this could result in an 'immediate loss of revenue.'
I've tried to see things from your point of view before but I really can't get my head that far up my own asshole.

Also 'by the majority, people don't want mouthy fees... Hey maybe Anet does listen to us! Only you have to take others views into account as well (try to work on that

)

ayame ftw · May 03, 2007, 11:00 AM // 11:00

To start with i don’t think monthly fees would have changed the decisions anet made to skills, maps; ect. They just made the changes because they thought it was the best thing to do at that time. Not that I agree with there changes…

If there was a monthly fee for GW form the start, the only difference would be that more people that prefer pve would have gone to WoW from the start instead of GW. Because WoW is better in every aspect if it comes to pve, even with the grind. (I have tried both).
The main reason Anet has attracted a lot of players is because there is no monthly fee. That’s also the reason a lot of people are still playing GW even if they think is not that great or even extremely boring.

Actually if u compare what u spend on GW and Wow:
If u buy every chapter of GW then u actually payed your monthly fee if u look at it… it just not so “scary” to pay because its payed in one time. Example:
WoW:
cost for the game: 20 euro
monthly fee: 30 euro if u only pay for 60 days (2month)
monthly fee if u pay for 6 month: 8 euros a month

so lets say u play 2 years:
20 + ( 8 * 24) = 212 euro

GW:
Cost game: 50 euro times 3 = 150 € for 2 years ( if u didn’t buy collectors and char slots) and in august it will be a nother 30 euros for gw:en

U see, its just that people think if they have to pay every month it costs more then paying one big amount every 6 month
So all gw players could have gone WoW if they wanted and just pay a little more (50-60 euro’s)

Yaga Philipe · May 03, 2007, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

So the opinions of the established players who were complaining don't matter in comparison to the players who like the newer things, and them leaving the game was worth trying something new to bring more people in?

You just proved my thread.

Why should established players get more say than newer players? I for one, don't give a damn how long you have been playing. How long you been playing means that you just found the box sitting on a store shelf before me or someone else did. Big-wup. While it might mean they no a little bit more of what they're talking about, there's not much difference. Besides, if you listen to "established" players, you're only listening to a small group of players.

Kas · May 03, 2007, 11:02 AM // 11:02

If in anger, if in doubt - post in forums, bitch and pout.